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#98364 - 05/20/08 03:58 PM Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans...
jennlf jennlf Member Registered: 12/15/04 Posts: 1203 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	Has anyone used the grammar book/workbook from USA Medical transcription, Inc.? This is the link: http://usamedtran.com/_wsn/page4.html I've looked for something like this for a long time, but I'm hesitant to go ahead and pay that amount of money when I don't know if it's worth it. Please let me know if you've heard anything about this company's program... Jenny Edited by jennlf (05/20/08 06:57 PM)
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#98365 - 05/20/08 04:05 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
haggis haggis Member Registered: 04/29/04 Posts: 2638 Loc: Left Coast, FL	Why pay for something you can get for free? It looks like the Blue Book for Grammar is still largely searchable online (including some quizzes).
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#98367 - 05/20/08 04:12 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Well, I sure wouldn't pay $200 for a short basic review of English grammar and punctuation. I highly doubt there's anything there that isn't available at various online sites or from free online references. (Not to mention that the sort of things they say they cover are the sort of things I expect any MT would know by the end of any decent training course if not before even starting an MT training course.) For $200 you could buy yourself a couple of widely recognized top-notch English grammar and style references rather than some kind of sketchy review of dubiously authoritative authorship. I wouldn't be surprised if their "The Elements of Grammar" isn't just this book, which costs a whole lot less than $200: http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Grammar-Margaret-Shertzer/dp/0028614496 "The Elements of Grammar: the Essential Guide to Refining and Improving Grammar" Cost: $9.95 Edited by 14tonks (05/20/08 04:21 PM)
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#98369 - 05/20/08 04:15 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: haggis]
jennlf jennlf Member Registered: 12/15/04 Posts: 1203 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	I am overly frustrated with commas and which versus that. I've posted many times here over which versus that and other things, but I have hit a wall. I want something that is geared specifically at medical transcription grammar and I don't believe the blue book is. I've even considered the Meditech English program. I believe it's only 50 dollars and you can take it as a single course. There really aren't many schools offering single courses for a straight fee anymore. I've looked. Jenny
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#98370 - 05/20/08 04:20 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Well, I'd still buy The Elements of Grammar for $10 rather than $200 and maybe add Gregg to my basket as well. The book isn't going to be any more "geared specifically to medical transcription" at the higher price. Nor do you need one that is; the rules of grammar and punctuation are the rules of grammar and punctuation. Yes, the BOS/AMT modify some of the style rules of Chicago/Gregg, but those modifications have nothing to do with commas or which versus that.
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#98371 - 05/20/08 04:21 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
haggis haggis Member Registered: 04/29/04 Posts: 2638 Loc: Left Coast, FL	Well, "which versus that" isn't exactly MT-specific. I betcha Ellen could recommend something that would do the trick for you at far less than $200, if you're bound and determined that you need something.
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#98372 - 05/20/08 04:26 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	If you want programmed learning workbooks with answer keys for teach-it-yourself, I'd recommend the well-respected English 2200/2600/3200 series. My mother used them for her students for years. They worked; I expect they still do, and outside of an English grammar course in a local college or adult school near you, I'd say they may be your best bet for improving your command of English. http://www.amazon.com/English-3200-Writing-Applications-Programmed/dp/015500865X
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#98373 - 05/20/08 04:46 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: I am overly frustrated with commas and which versus that. "Commas" covers a lot of territory as they are used in many different contexts, so I'm not going to even try to address that issue briefly. As far as which versus that goes, technically it's a matter of whether you are introducing a restrictive or a nonrestrictive clause. That is almost always used with restrictive clauses. Which theoretically should only be used with nonrestrictive clauses according to the purists, but is often used with restrictive ones as well, particularly when speaking. For free, you can find the following two discussions in two good free references at Bartleby: http://www.bartleby.com/68/91/5991.html http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/062.html If you still are confused, it's probably because you don't have a firm handle on restrictive versus nonrestrictive clauses. Look those up, or consider working your way through something like the programmed learning English grammar courses recommended above. Grammar and punctuation involve a number of interlocking concepts. If you don't have a good basic grounding and understanding of the parts of speech and of components of sentence structure, then usage rules and their variations and exceptions are all going to be hard to grasp. Edited by 14tonks (05/20/08 04:53 PM)
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#98382 - 05/20/08 07:11 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: 14tonks]
jennlf jennlf Member Registered: 12/15/04 Posts: 1203 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	I will look into what you suggested, 14tonks. I've actually asked about restrictive/nonrestrictive clauses many times before here. I've gone to the links that people have found helpful; and while they did help me understand in that sentence, it just doesn't help when I start transcribing. I'm not finding the right wording or phrasing. In fact, many sites state the same thing. One of my books says something entirely different. I suppose that I'm most irritated that there really isn't some kind of formula to help me out. Anyway, I've started ranting here. Obviously. Thanks for the information on the books. I will read up on them and hopefully buy them. Can't be throwing my money around. Jenny
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#98385 - 05/20/08 07:48 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: I've actually asked about restrictive/nonrestrictive clauses many times before here. I've gone to the links that people have found helpful; and while they did help me understand in that sentence, it just doesn't help when I start transcribing....I suppose that I'm most irritated that there really isn't some kind of formula to help me out. There is no cut-and-dried simple punctuation rule you can apply that is guaranteed to give you the right answer without thought. Indeed, if you are only looking at the written word, there are always going to be some sentences in which whether a clause should be interpreted as restrictive or nonrestrictive could be argued either way (although if you are hearing it, the speaker's speech rhythm and intonation will usually give you some clue to the intended interpretation). All I can say is that, as I suspected, your real grammar problem appears to be distinguishing restrictive from nonrestrictive clauses. If you are certain of yourself there, whether to use commas or not with the clause is straightforward and the choice between that and which is simply a matter of how rigid and formal a style guide you are supposed to follow. The difference between restrictive and nonrestrictive is whether the clause adds crucial information that changes exactly what that which it modifies refers to or whether it simply adds detail. Sometimes the two types of clauses are referred to as essential and nonessential, but that terminology seems to truly confuse people because a bit of information may be essential to the discussion although not essential to determining which object, person, etc. is being referred to. It does sound as if you probably need a workbook that will give you a chance to do some concentrated practice with a number of examples. You also need to understand that if something is written out and properly punctuated, you can tell whether the author meant the phrase to be restrictive or nonrestrictive. You can't necessarily tell when it isn't--in which case as an MT you just have to make your best logical guess. If the difference is crucial to the meaning of the report and you are uncertain, then it needs to be flagged. Otherwise, just punctuate it the way it sounds to you and move on. Edited by 14tonks (05/20/08 07:55 PM)
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#98399 - 05/21/08 04:27 AM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: Thanks for the information on the books. I will read up on them and hopefully buy them. Can't be throwing my money around. Just buy the 3200--that reviews what's in the earlier books in the series as well. You should be able to find a used one at alibris or somewhere similar fairly cheaply. The only thing that somewhat boggles my mind is that the more recent editions of 3200 are apparently now sold for use in college English classes, although it was originally written for 10th grade, and I went through it in an accelerated 9th grade class. Guess that tells us something about what has happened to English education in our schools over the last 40 years, doesn't it? If you want some painless grammar review in your daily e-mail, you might also drop by http://www.dailygrammar.com.
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#98463 - 05/22/08 03:26 AM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: 14tonks]
jennlf jennlf Member Registered: 12/15/04 Posts: 1203 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	That last bit is part of the problem. I can only remember one year of near intense study of grammar in my language arts class in junior high. I don't remember focusing so much on grammar for the rest of my school years. In college, grammar homework was skimmed over, and so I skimmed over it. When I took the medical transcription classes, I did focus a lot on the English, but only really off of one book. Not enough time was spent on grammar. It really needed to be its own class. I have studied on my own with different books and some websites. Anyway, I have ordered the 3200 you recommended and also the answer key. I'll let you know if it helps. Thank you so much for your recommendations. Jenny Edited by jennlf (05/22/08 03:26 AM)
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#98470 - 05/22/08 08:22 AM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6295 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: I can only remember one year of near intense study of grammar in my language arts class in junior high. I don't remember focusing so much on grammar for the rest of my school years. In college, grammar homework was skimmed over, and so I skimmed over it. When I took the medical transcription classes, I did focus a lot on the English, but only really off of one book. Not enough time was spent on grammar. It really needed to be its own class. This really does say a lot about what's wrong with current education in America. When I went to school back in the 50s and 60s, grammar was pounded into your head all the way through grammar school and junior high, including a couple of years of intensive sentence diagramming. Then it was repounded in high school, but there it was really review of what you were supposed to already know. You also got marked off in red for English errors in your papers or other work for any course all the way through school, not just in English. In college, no one studied "grammar" except English majors interested in deep lexical analysis of the language. You had to buy a copy of Strunk & White as a freshman and do your papers to match style requirements, but it was assumed that everyone had the 3 Rs down pat already or they wouldn't be in college. Good luck, jennlf; at least you recognize the problem and are trying to do something about if for yourself. If you want another self-teaching project for English, see if you can find one of those good old books on sentence diagramming and do some practice on that.
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#98568 - 05/23/08 12:21 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: 14tonks]
Enigma Enigma Junior Member Registered: 12/12/05 Posts: 37 Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains	"Medical transcription grammar" isn't the same as English grammar? I am so nauseated by the mass slaughter of language... **** I've just been looking for a thread I could vent in without posting a new one. By the time I'm finished, you won't need to ask for whom I work, but I just received an email from my boss, quoting her boss, in part: "...in lieu of today's events...the sell of the company..." I'd forgive "the sell" because it may be some kind of neo-corporate-speak. But it really chaps my rear to the max when people, particularly highly educated ones like doctors, misuse "in lieu of" when they really mean "in light of" or "in view of." I wanted to vent to you all because I need to feel like I am not the Lone Ranger of Language. I think our higher-ups should be setting an example, and a good one at that, or else they shouldn't be higher-ups. Okay, so MTs and MEs are the ones for whom spelling and grammar counts; supervisors don't need to know how to spell. Am I getting warm yet? I did think they had someone to proofread for them. I try to set an example, but there is no one looking up to me. Ha, ha!
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#98612 - 05/23/08 11:21 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
Redpen Redpen Member Registered: 12/31/69 Posts: 932 Loc: Virtual Oklahoma!	Originally Posted By: jennlf That last bit is part of the problem. I can only remember one year of near intense study of grammar in my language arts class in junior high. I don't remember focusing so much on grammar for the rest of my school years. In college, grammar homework was skimmed over, and so I skimmed over it. When I took the medical transcription classes, I did focus a lot on the English, but only really off of one book. Not enough time was spent on grammar. It really needed to be its own class. I have studied on my own with different books and some websites. Anyway, I have ordered the 3200 you recommended and also the answer key. I'll let you know if it helps. Thank you so much for your recommendations. Jenny Granted, the above isn't much of a sample, but your use of commas seems OK to me. There isn't anything special about MT grammar, including commas. If you can write commas naturally in an online post, you should be able to write them in a medical report. I see people who have trouble with this because they have a mistaken belief that there is something special about grammar in medical reports. Other people think they have trouble because someone who wouldn't know a comma from a semicolon is telling them they have trouble. Some people actually do have trouble because they're trying too hard. They're either trying to "grammarize" the medical report instead of just listening and writing it down, or they're trying to sort out dictated punctuation. If you're trying to "grammarize," just listen and write the report as if it were your own. Can you write a letter? Can you write an email? If so, you can write a report. If you're trying to sort out dictated punctuation, just ignore it. Listen to the report, understand it, and then write it down as if it were your own. _________________________ Redpen (The Andrews School)
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#98618 - 05/24/08 03:48 AM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: Redpen]
jennlf jennlf Member Registered: 12/15/04 Posts: 1203 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	The comma problem I have really does come primarily from restrictive versus nonrestrictive phrases. I spend entirely too much time debating on whether the comma should go in there or not. I'm not consistent anymore. I keep thinking of radiology reports I have seen, and they rarely use commas with which. I'm really not understanding the explanations. Findings in exams are essential to the sentence--are they not? But elsewhere regular laboratory results come after a comma. The patient had lab tests today, which showed sodium 134, potassium 3.4......A comma is needed there. I need to go back to the basics and run through all the examples I can find. The explanations I've received here and other places help me define restrictive/nonrestrictive, but like math and other subjects, I just plain need to do a whole lot of exercises. As to my placement of commas, it's a whole lot easier to compose your own sentence structure than someone else's. The hospitals I transcribe for don't ask for verbatim, but they discourage editing. I always feel the need to cut down doctor's sentences and stop their run-on sentences. I like sentences to be short and as to the point as possible. But we can't always do that and my comma questioning presents itself there too. Also, I am spending a lot of time on these posts, especially since I noted some stupid errors I made when I submitted the first time. It has become more difficult since not being in school to actually write simple stuff like this. I think I can feel my brain melting away because I am not writing my own thoughts daily. Hope that hit some of the statements. As to Haggis, thanks for your suggestions. I have looked briefly at the blue book. I don't think I thanked you earlier. Also, I really don't like to find more English websites. I'd rather have the book. Finding sites on line just encourages me to spend more time in front of the computer, and gosh, it's so bad for my health. I don't know how you guys can do 40 or more hours a week. I've been part time since I started medical transcription, and it kills my legs, even with exercise. Jenny
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#98635 - 05/24/08 01:13 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
Enigma Enigma Junior Member Registered: 12/12/05 Posts: 37 Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains	Quote: It has become more difficult since not being in school to actually write simple stuff like this. I think I can feel my brain melting away because I am not writing my own thoughts daily. Just my opinion, keep in mind: It's a great idea to keep a journal and write your own thoughts every day, or at least your dreams. Also, reading well-written literature and articles is one of the best ways to get it in your head. (Yep, hard to find these days LOL) My mother is an excellent writer and has a huge vocabulary and she only finished high school--she got it all from reading.
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#98636 - 05/24/08 01:22 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: jennlf]
MicheleA MicheleA Member Registered: 02/18/05 Posts: 1011	Quote: The patient had lab tests today, which showed sodium 134, potassium 3.4......A comma is needed there. Quote: The hospitals I transcribe for don't ask for verbatim Then just take out the comma and which and replace them with the word that.
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#98712 - 05/26/08 12:30 PM Re: Grammar book/workbook from USA medical trans.. [Re: MicheleA]
Wordcraftr Wordcraftr Junior Member Registered: 02/11/08 Posts: 80 Loc: Midwest coast	Whew! What a long discussion on grammar and punctuation. I went to a private grade school, high school and college. We had grammar pounded into our heads year after boring year. And I HATED grammar! I think it's an exercise in mental gymnastics. I did not find diagramming sentences to be helpful to anything (although it helped me analyze language structure when I took linguistics in college). Bottom line: I did not find that studying grammar helped me with my writing. What DID help me with my writing was reading, reading and more reading. The next thing is writing, writing and more writing. Enigma's suggestion is a good one. I kept a diary since I was 11 years old, and wrote almost every night about the events of the day. I currently teach an online creative writing course to junior high students, and I do mark off for grammar and usage. I have a short chapter on grammar, but I want my students to become comfortable with using language by using language rather than studying rules about it. There are so many exceptions that a formalized grammar text seems to be more about exceptions than about the norm. What I tell students is that if they don't know how to spell something, they should look it up. (I always say that spell check is not very effective, especially when it comes to homonyms). Before submitting their final draft to me, they should have someone look over it and point out what needs changing. I tell them to study the corrections I make, and if they repeat an error they get extra points taken off. Good writing is about clarity. I'm a comma minimalist, but I do understand that they are certainly necessary when dividing text, particularly lists of things. I change my transcriptions, and nobody has complained yet. I write drugs as a numbered list when there are two or more. I correct syntax as I go along. I change verb tenses when they are used incorrectly. I change only the nonessential things. Medications and procedures are always written as dictated. The day I am told I can't do minor editing to correct grammar is the day I hang up my keyboard. _________________________ Gravity. It's not Just a good idea. It's the Law.
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