|
|
#97398 - 05/07/08 10:48 AM
Closing in on the Democratic Convention
|
tropsicleAfter
Member
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 2042
Loc: MS Gulf Coast
|
As the primary season comes to a close and the Democratic national convention looms, there are several remaining questions to be answered, most importantly those pesky MI and FL votes.
Those here that have been paying attention know that as it stands now none of those delegates will be seated and allowed to vote, thus disenfranchizing millions of voters. Yes, BHO was not on the ballot in MI, but that was his choice - he withdrew his name from the ballot. I know how I would feel if I lived in either state, but how do you feel about this? I know we have several participants here from both states, and I am particularly curious about how they feel, and what the general local and state-wide take on all this is.
Thoughts?
_________________________
tropsicle
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97415 - 05/07/08 01:42 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: tropsicleAfter]
|
MattsKat
Member
Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 1960
Loc: Here and Now...USA
|
...as it stands now none of those [MI and FL] delegates will be seated and allowed to vote, thus disenfranchizing millions of voters...
What about the uncounted millions (?) of MI and FL registered voters who understood and accepted the Dem Party's decision about early primaries and chose to stay at home rather than vote in a state primary without any official consequence? Do they get a say? How? And when?
_________________________
Those who can laugh at themselves shall never cease to be amused.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97416 - 05/07/08 01:55 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: MattsKat]
|
14tonks
Member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 5914
Loc: Only 3rd world country in US
|
I think it was incredibly stupid of the Democratic party to dictate what date states must hold their primaries on in order to be counted. However, since they did, they're now stuck between a rock and a hard place. There is no way to know what the tally would have been for a primary that everyone in MI and FL knew was legal and would count. Counting those who voted anyway is not representative. Not giving any votes to those states is not representative. However, not giving them a vote would at least be sticking to the rules the party told everyone they were playing by. I think the MI and FL delegations should not be seated, but that everyone who is seated at the convention should lay down the law to the national committee and powers-that-be to guarantee that nothing like this will ever happen in future.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97418 - 05/07/08 02:24 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: 14tonks]
|
George Heymont
Member
Registered: 05/04/99
Posts: 4371
Loc: San Francisco, CA
|
It's really a lot simpler than most people think. All candidates were informed of the rules and agreed to them. Obama played by the rules, clean and simple. That's why his name was not on the ballot in Michigan.
Only after she was not a sure bet did the Clinton campaign try moving the goal posts and asking for all kinds of changes in the rules.
We now have a good excuse to test the theory that a silver stake pounded through the heart of a vampire is an effective cure.
_________________________
George Heymont
Alert & Oriented Medical Transcription Services
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97420 - 05/07/08 02:41 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: George Heymont]
|
bobbcat
Member
Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 5556
Loc: My office.
|
We now have a good excuse to test the theory that a silver stake pounded through the heart of a vampire is an effective cure. 
_________________________
Bottom line, it's either M-TEC or Andrews.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97421 - 05/07/08 03:09 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: bobbcat]
|
Kimmbberr
Member
Registered: 10/04/99
Posts: 1842
Loc: Corvallis, Oregon
|
Well, we will still end up with a candidate no matter what the final count is. What I will find interesting to watch is whether the Clinton followers will follow Obama or not.
_________________________
Kimi
What Washington needs is adult supervision. Obama, 2006
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97458 - 05/07/08 11:36 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: Kimmbberr]
|
whorn
Member
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 484
|
Tropsicle,
Florida resident here, and my opinion. Florida chose to move its primary date up knowing what the consequences would be. The candidates promised not to campaign in the state, and did not. The voters knew that their vote would be meaningless and thus few, or far fewer, went to the polls to vote.
I don't feel disenfranchised, more annoyed that the Florida legislature chose to do this knowing the consequences, that an early state primary would mean the loss of state delegates. The RNC also "punished" the state and allowed only 1/2 of their delegates to be seated.
Should these quasi primary, low-to-no voter turnout votes be included now? I vote no. It was a primary in name only and most people did not bother to vote because of it.
Something can be done about this. The Florida legislature can change the primary date back to when it always has been, on Super Tuesday, play by the rules, and have their delegates seated next time around.
Edited by whorn (05/07/08 11:47 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97524 - 05/08/08 05:50 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: 14tonks]
|
Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1376
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
|
I think it was incredibly stupid of the Democratic party to dictate what date states must hold their primaries on in order to be counted.
Well, you can also say that the Republicans were incredibly stupid, too. They also dictated that. In fact, South Carolina, Michigan, and Florida lost half their delegates for violating the rules. The Republican's also cut New Hampshire's delegates by half for the same reason. Yet no one seems to be stumping to seat the full delegations of those states at the Republican convention. Yes, there are court cases which have upheld the right of the parties to dictate the schedule.
It also seems to be overlooked that the Michigan primary was held to be unconstitutional. Here's the case.
Both states indulged in a naked grab for influence, and did not change even after they were told, well in advance of the consequences. If there's anyone who's "disenfranchising" their voters, it's the elected officials of both states. Even worse, they wasted their taxpayers' money by holding these elections, which they knew wouldn't count.
_________________________
Cthulhu/Hastur 2008: Why vote for the Lesser Evil?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97526 - 05/08/08 06:15 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: Doug Jones]
|
whorn
Member
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 484
|
And you know who elects those "elected officials"? The voters.
Don't know about Michigan but the voters in Florida have a strong tendency to vote for the same officials over and over and over again, so in essence, when things like this happen they have actually disenfranchised themselves. Yet, come next time for local and state elections they will likely vote in the very same officials.
It would not surprise me one bit if the Florida legislature decided to go "hanging chad on steroids", hold "their" national election in October instead of November, disclose nationally the results before the actual general election, and then cry they were "disenfranchised" when the votes are disqualified from the general election.
Florida: From the Sunshine State to the National Embarrassment State.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97529 - 05/08/08 07:03 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: whorn]
|
Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1376
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
|
but the voters in Florida have a strong tendency to vote for the same officials over and over and over again,
Oh, Florida has nothing on New York! We have the highest rate of returning incumbents in the country. We've even got it pretty well down institutionally - just getting on the ballot is subject to byzantine rules.
Florida is also getting challenged for the National Embarrassment title. New Jersey and New York had recent gubenatorial - issues - and Ohio currently looks to be making a run at it with their Attorney General.
_________________________
Cthulhu/Hastur 2008: Why vote for the Lesser Evil?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#97535 - 05/08/08 10:24 PM
Re: Closing in on the Democratic Convention
[Re: Doug Jones]
|
Glory1863
Member
Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Beyond Antares
|
Doug, you forgot Illinois where the prior governor (Republican) got sent up the river to the Big House, the current governor (Democrat) is reputed to be "Public Official A" in a couple of the US Attorney's investigations and the Republicans had to find someone from out of state to run against our current junior senator. It just goes on and on because it is considered normal.
_________________________
The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. Abraham Lincoln
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
