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#95042 - 04/08/08 02:44 PM
For the Working MT
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ellemt
New Member
Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 23
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Interesting article -- For the Working MT
For starters, acknowledge the worth of your knowledge and skills, and refuse to allow anyone to diminish it.
If you are paid pennies and are required to produce a quota, transcribe only dictation that allows you to do that. If you go into overtime, keep a record of it and get paid overtime for it. If your employer refuses to pay overtime, turn your records over to the Wage and Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor because the Federal law requires payment be made for working overtime.
If, at the end of your shift, you realize you are making below minimum wage, notify the individual or company from whom you get a paycheck, and inform them that they need to adjust your wage to accommodate the law. If it is not done, notify the U.S. Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division.
One mantra of our society is, "You get what you pay for." If your pay was not adjusted appropriately upward with the birth of the VBC (visible black character), call the local Geek Squad and have your space bar disabled. You should be paid for what you give, and if that includes the space bar, reimbursement should be given for it.
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#95075 - 04/08/08 06:59 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: ellemt]
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Endiqua
Member
Registered: 04/28/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: At the computer - where else?
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Um...well, okay, I have no problems with the overtime and minimum wage thingies. Good advice. In fact, I had no problems with the entire first page of the article.
But...how on earth can you transcribe only certain dictation and expect to keep your job? How on earth can you refuse to type spaces and expect to keep your job? How many "average MTs" can afford to lose their jobs - and possibly not be able to find another one if they've lost it due to the tactics recommended above?
Sherrie Sawyer's comment left me absolutely gobsmacked, to tell you the truth. "MTs are absolutely compensated beyond 30K a year"? Maybe some MTs, but it's certainly not usual. Not from what I see here and other forums, and not from what I see at my national. Coupled with the rest of her comment, it sure reads to me like her attitude is everything's peachy keen within the industry and if you aren't making enough money, you just aren't good enough at the job.
She knows many MTs working for nationals making up to six figures? I never got even CLOSE to that at my national as a production MT - and I was REALLY GOOD at production. Dang. I want to write her and ask her to tell me which companies, because I'd definitely go back to production MT work for that kind of money.
Now, I'll admit that there are people who don't make as much as others because they aren't as good at MT. To be blunt, there are indeed people who just plain suck at this job. No question. Just as there are people who are really good and/or have good situations and can make $50-$60K a year, even at a national company. (Six figures. Wow. I've never seen anyone claim they made that as an employee.)
However, there just aren't enough of those "less than capable" MTs to account for the change in the tenor and volume of pay discussions in the last few years. It's gone from some occasional grousing about pay (and who doesn't do that occasionally?) to increasingly loud, increasingly panicked cries of "I can't survive in this job anymore!" thanks to decreasing line rates, outsourcing of the "easy stuff," and the advent of SR.
I know experienced and capable MTs who say their pay has decreased year by year, while their line count has only increased. They work harder and up their production still more...and the pay somehow keeps going down.
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#95105 - 04/09/08 09:20 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Endiqua]
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mktkey
New Member
Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 13
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Thanks for addressing the capability of MTs whose wages are getting lower. I've browsed here and at MT Stars looking for info about pay and the future of the industry. I wasn't sure whether the industry really was that bad for good MTs, or whether it was the matchbook school MTs who didn't have the education or experience with any productivity tools who were doing all the complaining.
I got this from my school:
There are some sites that are notorious for trouble makers and dissatisfied MTs who are very unprofessional and have not kept up on their skills, thus making job security and productivity a difficult thing for them to achieve. You will find this though in any profession.
This doesn't seem fit the whole story.
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#95111 - 04/09/08 10:03 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Endiqua]
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Glory1863
Member
Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 273
Loc: Beyond Antares
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Endiqua, I think what Ms. Sawyer forgot to add about the 6-figure salaries is that 2 of those figures are after the decimal point.
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#95130 - 04/09/08 11:20 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: mktkey]
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Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1377
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
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This doesn't seem fit the whole story.
Well, this site is one of those considered "notorious for trouble makers." Most of the biggest trouble-makers here are people who have many years in the field, have or do run transcription services, and have been major contributors to the field. But <gasp!> they don't agree with the rosy picture painted by various industry groups!
I did some quick math and in order for a transcriptionist to make barely 6-figures, you'd have to have an unrealistic CPL and an unrealistic line-count. Oh, and you'd have to do it with no vacations, sick time, etc., etc., etc. 
The issue with MT compensation is that the prices charged by the services have gone down or remained static, over the past decade. They've been using a "make it up with volume" business approach, and they're using it down the chain to the transcriptionist. Pay (in terms of cents per line) has remained static or declined, while the transcriptionists are told that their pay would increase because new software/techniques/speech recognition/magic pixie dust will improve their productivity, enabling them to produce more lines.
The reality is that there is a real limit to productivity per person, even using the best of the new technology and the highest skill. Because services are not willing to increase their charges to the customer, that basically means that (at best) MT pay will remain static. Given that almost nothing else does, it results in a real decline in MT earnings.
Additionally, with each new iteration of technology that is supposed to improve production, the expectations of that improvement also rise. This means that each transcriptionist is expected (required) to produce more per unit time, to justify the expenditure on the technology. At the same time, the services are cutting compensation in CPL, explaining it away with "well, you should produce X more with this, so you're not actually getting a pay cut." 
That's why so many long-time transcriptionists are dissatisfied. It's not "job security and productivity" that's the issue. It's that this is now a field with ever-increasing demands for higher productivity with decreasing compensation. The transcriptionist who made $50,000 in 1995 may still be making that, but they're having to produce almost twice as much to do it, and $50,000 today is not the same as $50,000 in 1995.
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#95151 - 04/09/08 12:53 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: mktkey]
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Endiqua
Member
Registered: 04/28/05
Posts: 3468
Loc: At the computer - where else?
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Thanks for addressing the capability of MTs whose wages are getting lower. I've browsed here and at MT Stars looking for info about pay and the future of the industry. I wasn't sure whether the industry really was that bad for good MTs, or whether it was the matchbook school MTs who didn't have the education or experience with any productivity tools who were doing all the complaining. I got this from my school: There are some sites that are notorious for trouble makers and dissatisfied MTs who are very unprofessional and have not kept up on their skills, thus making job security and productivity a difficult thing for them to achieve. You will find this though in any profession. This doesn't seem fit the whole story.
You're absolutely right. It's NOT the whole story, and it's NOT just "matchbook MTs." Your school has a good reason to play down the negatives - money. However, the "troublemakers" on sites like this one do not. Ask yourself whose information is likely to be less biased - the business who can make more money if they say "everything's fine," or the people who tell it like it is and receive only insults for their trouble?
I hear this from people who have been working for years for the same company, who know how to use their expanders, AND who know the platform and the account inside out. It's people who have been REGULARLY exceeding production quotas but who are making less money than they used to.
Glory - your comment cracked me up.
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#95156 - 04/09/08 01:08 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Doug Jones]
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JustJ
Member
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 1234
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Excellent post, Doug. If you happen to find some of the magic pixie dust on Ebay please holler at me because I am interested. 
J
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#95159 - 04/09/08 01:16 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Doug Jones]
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14tonks
Member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 6295
Loc: Only 3rd world country in US
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I did some quick math and in order for a transcriptionist to make barely 6-figures, you'd have to have an unrealistic CPL and an unrealistic line-count. Oh, and you'd have to do it with no vacations, sick time, etc., etc., etc.
Yep. Doesn't anyone know how to use a calculator any more? Even at 10 cpl (and good luck finding that these days), $100,000 a year would represent a million lines. If you type 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, every week of the year, you're working 2080 hours a year, so you would need to type 481 lines per hour every single hour you worked to make that 6-figure salary. Would everyone who can routinely break 400 lines per hour on all her work, hour after hour, please raise her hand. (And will anyone who can constantly hit 500 typing acute care dictation by several hundred different doctors for a pile of accounts with different style rules please change my water into wine on her way by to take a bow.)
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#95163 - 04/09/08 01:53 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Doug Jones]
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HoosierFemme
Member
Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 1132
Loc: Parisian suburbs, France
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Additionally, with each new iteration of technology that is supposed to improve production, the expectations of that improvement also rise. This means that each transcriptionist is expected (required) to produce more per unit time, to justify the expenditure on the technology. At the same time, the services are cutting compensation in CPL, explaining it away with "well, you should produce X more with this, so you're not actually getting a pay cut."
Oh my. Just a couple days ago I read that exact same spiel in an article on speech recognition (M-TEC assignment)! Hm. That'd be akin to me telling my baker that because they have a fancy new machine to make their bread, they can turn out more baguettes, so I'll pay them 65 centimes instead of 85. If it were truly about production and faster TAT, they'd implement SRT and not cut my pay. It's about cost and about trying to get rid of the MT, which this article admitted was the original goal of SRT. But, like my husband and I discussed today in relation to one day getting rid of teachers for technology, you cannot completely replace a human. We can think; SRT can't!
OK. Now where'd I put those pink eyeglasses?
_________________________
The French motto is "Liberté, Egalité, and Get Out of My Way." English author Stephen Clarke
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#95203 - 04/09/08 06:22 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: 14tonks]
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haggis
Member
Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 2638
Loc: Left Coast, FL
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I don't know about ICs, but maybe the 6-figure MT gets one helluva bonus once she's over her minimum production quota. She might be able to shave an hour off here and there to actually sleep.
As for the original article, I had to wonder how much attention she's been paying, to think strikes and unionization would actually work. Have to give her credit for at least pointing out that even CMTs average just above what's considered the poverty line:
The 2007 salary survey published in ADVANCE was disturbing. I know of no other persons claiming to be in the professional category of occupations who earn $27,000 (round numbers); even those who are beginners do better than that. In fact, it is a number that represents a decrease in salary to the early 1980s.
Some might suggest the answer lies in certification. After all, certified medical transcriptionists (CMTs) made considerably more, right? Thinks about this: When the Federal minimum wage law changes in 2009, the CMT will be earning just above poverty wages. Let's not fall all over ourselves as we scramble for an exit. *sigh*
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#95377 - 04/11/08 06:24 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: haggis]
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Linda Andrews CMT
Moderator-Andrews School
Registered: 12/31/69
Posts: 5006
Loc: Oklahoma City, OK US
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I didn't write the comment quoted above, but I wish I did have time to add to this topic. I'll have to keep it shorter than usual today. [looking at it after the fact, I obviously didn't keep it shorter.]
Much of my e-mail comes from people who have worked in other career fields for long or short periods of time and want out of them. The reasons range from normal job burnout to serious physical disabilities resulting from jobs that otherwise sound inviting. Some are jobs I would love to have if I were more than one person and could do it all. Some are in what I consider to be 'glamour' jobs. Evidently all is not rosy in those glamour jobs either.
In our industry we have our share of problems, but we also have some success stories. They often don't get a chance to visit boards and participate in discussions and they know that it isn't popular to be happy with your work, no matter what kind of work you do.
You're a teacher? You are supposed to complain about the fact that students are not eager to learn, parents come after you for 'discouraging' their children if you give them a poor grade, and there are those dangerous situations in which teachers risk life and limb.
You're a doctor? You don't get to practice medicine the way you thought you would when you were in med school. Someone else tells you what kinds of tests you can offer your patients and how much you can charge for them.
You're a nurse? There are long shifts often with more patients assigned to you than you can safely handle. Safety is another issue. How many nurses have to quit because of back injuries from lifting patients or other kinds of injuries from angry patients who strike out at them. Then there are other problems with nurses being exposed to toxic chemicals, Latex, all sorts of diseases and health hazards. No wonder we can't find enough nurses.
You're a writer? You get to choose your own hours and work when you please. You are considered to be creative. You are also often broke because there are months or years between paying jobs and you often don't get paid what you are worth when you are paid.
You're a flight attendant? Health issues seem to be the main reason why they are leaving in droves. Flying from a warm climate to a cold one everyday takes a toll on your body.
I'm even hearing from airline pilots, veterinarians, pharmacologists, people in the movie industry and just about everything except maybe one. Funeral directors have steady income with lots of job security. People continue to die. Nobody ever outsources that job.
There are dozens of other fields that may look perfect, but few are.
Right now I am exhausted and behind in my own work, so I'd better get busy.
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#95379 - 04/11/08 06:28 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Linda Andrews CMT]
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Jay_Vance_CMT
Member
Registered: 12/08/01
Posts: 1331
Loc: Yuma, AZ
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Linda, thanks for putting things into perspective in such a succinct fashion. It's easy to get tunnel vision here in our own little world, isn't it?
_________________________
Jay Vance, CMT aka Papa Jay Proud Grandparent
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#95388 - 04/11/08 08:08 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Linda Andrews CMT]
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Julie W8
Member
Registered: 01/10/99
Posts: 3490
Loc: Los Angeles, CA USA
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<snip> In our industry we have our share of problems, but we also have some success stories. They often don't get a chance to visit boards and participate in discussions and they know that it isn't popular to be happy with your work, no matter what kind of work you do.
Speaking only for myself, I'm thrilled when someone tells me they have a great work situation. I'm not sure saying they don't speak up because it isn't popular is accurate. If it is - then shame on them.
<snip> There are dozens of other fields that may look perfect, but few are.
Linda, I hope you aren't implying that we should just accept what's wrong with this industry because it isn't as bad as it could be/it isn't as bad as other jobs/nothing is perfect.
Here's what I do know and can speak about with authority:
* MTs are being paid less per line. * MTs are making less per hour. * MTs with experience aren't paid significantly more than MTs without experience. * MTs who produce quality work aren't paid significantly more than MTs who don't. * Neither of the above two groups will find job hunting any easier than someone with 1 or 2 years of experience. * If as an MTSO I try to charge a rate that's comparable (i.e., converted from gross lines to 65-character lines and the line rate adjusted accordingly) to what I charged 20 years ago, I would not be/have not been able to get any work.
I really do wish the people who are doing better would speak up. Maybe there'd be fewer of us looking for an escape hatch.
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#95392 - 04/11/08 09:11 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Linda Andrews CMT]
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Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1377
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
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There are dozens of other fields that may look perfect, but few are.
Unfortunately, that's because most people don't always see the complete picture of the field. There are downsides to every field, and I've been in a number of them. The other thing to remember is that there is often a big difference between should be and is. I've been in managerial situations where if you have a full staff that knows their job, the right equipment and facilities, and support from upper management, it's a great job. Tiring and stressful at times, but rewarding. Flip it around to where you're short-staffed, the staff you do have is of low quality, you have inadequate equipment and facilities, and zero support from upper management, and it turns into a nightmare. Yes, I've been on either side of that.
I think it's not a question of whether MT's like their job, or find it personally rewarding. The question is whether it has any real future as a desirable career. It has to be disheartening to find out that no matter how much skill and experience you have, it doesn't matter in terms of increased compensation. That the whole trend in the market has been a downward pressure on compensation over the past decade, while there is increased pressure for production. If it comes down to earning a living salary versus doing something you like, the earning a living will win out most of the time.
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#95394 - 04/11/08 10:00 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Julie W8]
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Mike
Administrator
Registered: 07/11/98
Posts: 2687
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Here's what I do know and can speak about with authority:
* MTs are being paid less per line. * MTs are making less per hour. * MTs with experience aren't paid significantly more than MTs without experience. * MTs who produce quality work aren't paid significantly more than MTs who don't. * Neither of the above two groups will find job hunting any easier than someone with 1 or 2 years of experience. * If as an MTSO I try to charge a rate that's comparable (i.e., converted from gross lines to 65-character lines and the line rate adjusted accordingly) to what I charged 20 years ago, I would not be/have not been able to get any work.
I think those are accurate observations about the industry. However, I think the point that Linda was trying to make is that the MT industry still appeals to many people because where they are currently is no better or is worse.
I've seen posts on programmer/computer blogs where people are upset because open source developers are giving away high quality applications for free.
I did think the point that Linda brought out about doctors was relevant to your last one about what you charged 20 years ago.
You're a doctor? You don't get to practice medicine the way you thought you would when you were in med school. Someone else tells you what kinds of tests you can offer your patients and how much you can charge for them.
If doctors and facilities aren't able to realize the profits (for whatever reason) that they did 20 years ago, it makes sense that they wouldn't be able to pay what they used to for services rendered.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think the issues could be bigger than what you describe. If it's tough all over, why should we expect MT to be any different?
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#95395 - 04/11/08 10:02 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Julie W8]
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Glory1863
Member
Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 273
Loc: Beyond Antares
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Julie, one of the things that I find very sad as an MT with 30 years of experience is to come to lists like this and see MTSOs who I either know personally or whose published work I have seen and respect say that given a choice between someone with long-term experience and a new grad, they will take the new grad every time. If it was just money, I could understand it; but it isn't.
New grads, they say, are more technologically adept. I've lost track of how many proprietary machines, word processing packages and proprietary platforms I've had to learn over the years, not to mention the Microsoft classes and BASIC programming because I thought maybe I could make more in IT (except I didn't really enjoy it). If I were 20 years younger, though, I WOULD get a masters in geographic information systems. I loved the introductory classes at the junior college down the street and the part-time temporary job I had for a nearby suburb.
I had the CMT for 20 years and went to the national, state and local meetings to keep up until the educational meetings became more and more geared for the new MTs. Now I look for health-related programs on PBS (and yes, I can program my VCR because I'm usually working when they're on). I came out of small hospitals where one person wore many hats. They need a director of records; fine I'll get my ART/RHIT. They need a cancer registrar; fine I'll get my CTR. When I got into the large suburban hospitals, I did cardiac registry instead of cancer and typed the manuscripts for a cardiac research foundation. I've done some work with cancer clinical trials and IRB. All the while, I kept transcribing for bigger hospitals and bigger services.
No, I don't know all the words or all the drugs, and yes, some specialties and some accents are easier to do than other, but I thought that I had more to offer than a new grad. Apparently, though, from comments I've seen on the lists, "oldtimers" like me have only learned bad habits, nothing useful, and are not needed.
I'd be reluctant to apply to "niche" or "boutique" services (where I might do better than at my current big national) whose owners have rather forcefully expressed a preference for a new grad over experience. If someone tells me that they're prejudiced, especially if it is someone I respect, I tend to take them at their word. I can't help but think we both lose out, but I guess we each need to do what we think works for us.
Since you made it this far, thank you for reading the rant. It's been a stressful day and tomorrow is shaping up to be more of the same. I think I'll see if the National Museum of Civil War Medicine has posted any information about this year's meeting yet. It's early, but I could use a break, and I'll feel right at home back in them thar olden days.
_________________________
The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. Abraham Lincoln
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#95404 - 04/12/08 12:21 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Julie W8]
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Jay_Vance_CMT
Member
Registered: 12/08/01
Posts: 1331
Loc: Yuma, AZ
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Linda, I hope you aren't implying that we should just accept what's wrong with this industry because it isn't as bad as it could be/it isn't as bad as other jobs/nothing is perfect.
I didn't get that out of what Linda said. Doug and Mike have already said most of what I was going to say, but I'll just add that to one degree or another you DO have to compare the field you're in to other fields of endeavor in order to keep a balanced view of the world. If MT was the only occupation where compensation is stagnant or declining, that would be one thing, but clearly it's not. If MT was the only occupation where people were unhappy, that would be one thing, but clearly it's not. And not everyone defines success or contentment in the same way.
As to why people who are doing well in this business aren't "speaking up," it may very well be, as Linda said, that most of those people don't have the time or inclination to come talk about it on forums like this! Not sure whether that says more about them or about us....
_________________________
Jay Vance, CMT aka Papa Jay Proud Grandparent
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#95406 - 04/12/08 12:30 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Glory1863]
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mavis
Member
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 328
Loc: In front of my computer
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I think I'll see if the National Museum of Civil War Medicine has posted any information about this year's meeting yet. It's early, but I could use a break, and I'll feel right at home back in them thar olden days.
Well, slap the dog and spit in the fire. I thought I was the one interested in that stuff. I have a post Civil War bound volume from the Medical Society of New York that is absolutely fascinating. Not only does it have drawings/pictures of war wounds and plastic surgery and things people coughed up, but there is a large part of the book dedicated to public health and infectious disease.
m.
_________________________
Who took your trip and made it bad....... William Topley
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#95410 - 04/12/08 01:38 AM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Mike]
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Julie W8
Member
Registered: 01/10/99
Posts: 3490
Loc: Los Angeles, CA USA
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I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think the issues could be bigger than what you describe. If it's tough all over, why should we expect MT to be any different?
You have to look at the different players in the game and the circumstances, Mike.
First of all, doctors are starting out higher on the food chain. Most of them aren't working at poverty level. Asking them to go a year - or four or five - without a pay increase isn't going to mean the difference between feeding their family and qualifying for food stamps.
Second, I assure you that Baxter or any dozen other suppliers to the hospital industry occasionally raise rates and when they do, nobody declares bankruptcy. The money can be found if necessary.
Which leads me to the third problem, which is a combination of ambiguous pricing, frank cheating and cutthroat competition. I had this discussion with Mojeaux the other day - how cutthroat competition has helped kill the medical transcription business. And I was going to write a long post here about it but decided I'll have to blog on it instead - there's too much to say.
Yes, every industry has its problems but for heaven's sake - let's not put on rosy-colored glasses while we lead the innocent down the garden path to the gates of hell. If I'm going to lead an expedition to slay the dragon, I want volunteers who know they might get slaughtered and are willing to sign up for it anyway.
Or - we could just keep telling them to ignore all the nasty people who're just afraid of losing their job or a bunch of BHOL who are cynical and wishing for a return to the days of yore when lines were lines and dictators weren't sloppy.
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#95425 - 04/12/08 01:03 PM
Re: For the Working MT
[Re: Julie W8]
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Jay_Vance_CMT
Member
Registered: 12/08/01
Posts: 1331
Loc: Yuma, AZ
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Yes, every industry has its problems but for heaven's sake - let's not put on rosy-colored glasses while we lead the innocent down the garden path to the gates of hell. If I'm going to lead an expedition to slay the dragon, I want volunteers who know they might get slaughtered and are willing to sign up for it anyway.
Or - we could just keep telling them to ignore all the nasty people who're just afraid of losing their job or a bunch of BHOL who are cynical and wishing for a return to the days of yore when lines were lines and dictators weren't sloppy.
I don't disagree with you about the importance of making sure we paint a realistic portrait of the MT business to those who are considering going into it. But over the years I've gotten the impression that many of those MTs who are the most unhappy are basically comparing the "good old days" of MT to what we have now, and THAT is the criteria they are using to conclude that the business is going down the tubes. I'm simply saying that whatever good old days there might have been in the past, those days are gone forever. So realistically we have to compare apples to apples---today's MT business with other comparable occupations of this era---in order determine whether or not MT is an option for us. To tell someone that MT isn't a good field to go into because wages have stagnated or because you can't make lines like you used to or because the business climate has changed still boils down to comparing TODAY'S MT with YESTERDAY'S MT, rather than comparing TODAY'S MT with TODAY'S ______________ or _________________ or __________________. For newcomers in the business who have no sense of history and have only the present to make comparisons with, what happened back in the 70s or 80s in the MT industry really is meaningless. What today's prospective MTs have to do is look at the amount of education and training required to make a benchmark income, say $30,000, in a variety of occupations, and then decide which one offers the right balance of risk, rewards, benefits, working conditions, etc. For all its faults, I still believe MT offers a decent future for people who have realistic expectations, a good work ethic, and a penchant for doing what we do. I understand your point of view about the direction the MT industry is going, and it's possible that you're right and the business is headed straight for the gates of hell. I don't share that degree of pessimism, however, and would not avoid telling someone about MT as a possible career because the industry has its challenges--mainly because I can't think of any other occupation I could recommend that does NOT have many of the same challenges.
_________________________
Jay Vance, CMT aka Papa Jay Proud Grandparent
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Moderator: Nae
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