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#93757 - 03/20/08 01:17 PM hyphen usage compound adj
mischale mischale Junior Member Registered: 01/24/04 Posts: 76 Loc: athens, ga	Are the hyphens in this sentence correct? (particular attention to the high-signal and low-signal) There are multiple round-to-ovoid lesions throughout the liver that are high-signal intensity on the T2-weighted images and low-signal intensity on the T1-weighted images. I think they are correct based on pg 95 of BOS, but I am getting questioned about it and I want to make sure - I have been wrong a bunch before!Thanks
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#93760 - 03/20/08 01:57 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
mischale mischale Junior Member Registered: 01/24/04 Posts: 76 Loc: athens, ga	You know now questioning that again - just had a case where it was low lung volumes. It would not be low-lung volumes - therefore it seems like high signal intensity would be correct. This is really confusing me. examples on BOS are: high-density mass low-frequency waves high-power field I just can't figure out the difference. HELP!!
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#93765 - 03/20/08 02:37 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6298 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	I would have to agree with whoever is questioning you. In the examples given in the BOS on that page (high-density mass, low-frequency waves, and high-power field), the hyphenated compound modifiers modify the following single noun: mass of high density, waves of low frequency, field of high power. In your sentence, however, low and high modify signal intensity. You are not discussing the intensity of low signal or high signal but rather high or low intensity of signal. I also wouldn't hyphenate round to ovoid as I regard that as a range, but that could be argued either way.
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#93766 - 03/20/08 02:40 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
ebadrake ebadrake Moderator Registered: 10/08/03 Posts: 2104 Loc: Tavares, FL; Peachtree City, G...	In the case of low lung volumes, low modifies lung volumes, not lung. It's not a low lung; it's a low volume. Notice that you can say low volumes or lung volumes and nothing seems to be missing from the phrase. In the case of high- and low-signal intensity, high and low modify signal and together they modify intensity. It's not a high intensity; it's a high signal. If you say high intensity, the question is high intensity what or high what intensity. You need high-signal to make the phrase make sense. I also would not hyphenate round to ovoid. Although compound adjectives often have a preposition in the middle, I don't think that's the case here. I'm a little pressed for time so my explanation may not be as clear as I'd like. Maybe ebit or 14tonks or Ann can step in and add to the discussion. By the way, we're just finishing up a new issue of e-Perspectives on the Medical Transcription Profession, which will be posted to the HPI website in about a week. It has an article by me on hyphens and an article by Georgia Green on using PubMed to see what the current practice is in determining issues of this sort. I'll let you know when we upload the new issue and provide a link. Ellen _________________________ [Drake & Drake] [my blog]
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#93768 - 03/20/08 02:41 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6298 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: I just can't figure out the difference. HELP!! Do you know how to diagram a sentence? If you do, diagram it, and it should become clear. If you don't, all I can suggest is rearranging into a prepositonal phrase as I did above. It's not volume of low lung but low volume of lung.
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#93769 - 03/20/08 02:41 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
Bennet Bennet Junior Member Registered: 07/13/07 Posts: 60 Loc: North TX	Someone else can offer a more technical explanation for this, but I try to figure out what exactly is being modified. In the case of low lung volume, it is the lung volume that is modified by low. Lung volume would be considered an entity in and of itself. Compare that to high-density mass, where it is the mass that is being modified by the compound high-density. You wouldn't think of it as the density mass being modified by high. I also think it can be helpful to rearrange things a bit to see what makes sense as a modifier. It would make sense to say "the lung volume is low" rather than "the volume is low lung" so that you know low is modifying lung volume. On the high-density mass example, you would say "the mass is high density" rather than "the density mass is high" and that would be a clue that high-density is modifying the mass. Hope this helps some--hyphens are one of those things that I have to watch and think about actively! $\:\)$ Cheryl Oops--was working on my answer and posted while the grammar gurus did too! $\:\)$ Edited by Bennet (03/20/08 02:48 PM) _________________________ Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
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#93770 - 03/20/08 02:49 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: ebadrake]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6298 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: Maybe ebit or 14tonks or Ann can step in and add to the discussion. Since 14tonks isn't reading this the way you are, we may have to wait for your return. Quote: If you say high intensity, the question is high intensity what or high what intensity. You need high-signal to make the phrase make sense. No, because I think the man means high intensity of signal, not intensity of high signal. One could say low intensity or signal intensity just as one could say low volumes or lung volumes. But I, too, have been known to be wrong.
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#93771 - 03/20/08 02:57 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: 14tonks]
mischale mischale Junior Member Registered: 01/24/04 Posts: 76 Loc: athens, ga	Okay so in the case of high signal intensity and low signal intensity - what is being modified here is the signal intensity so therefore no hyphen is to be used...Am I understanding. I like the explaination of asking self what is being modified. I am thinking I am understanding - am I?
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#93773 - 03/20/08 03:08 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
mischale mischale Junior Member Registered: 01/24/04 Posts: 76 Loc: athens, ga	If this were rearranged somewhat - say high-intensity signal - then the hyphen would be used?
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#93775 - 03/20/08 03:18 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: mischale]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6298 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Yes. Then you would be discussing a signal of high intensity, both words used as a compound modifier of signal.
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#93777 - 03/20/08 03:21 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: 14tonks]
Ebit Ebit Member Registered: 01/10/03 Posts: 1280 Loc: Black Hole of the Internet	Thanks for the invitation to pop in, Ellen, but I think 14tonks has covered it beautifully. _________________________ The means are the end. - Laia Asieo Odo
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#93779 - 03/20/08 03:27 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: Ebit]
AnnR AnnR Member Registered: 12/31/69 Posts: 18475 Loc: Ocean Park WA	I am flattered, Ellen! I tend to avoid hyphens when I can (and to rely on when the presence or absence of hyphens and other punctuation "feels right" to me), so I know I am not really a reference, and I certainly can't come up with tonksian backup for my reasons. Ann Edited by AnnR (03/20/08 03:30 PM) _________________________ so many docs dictate stuff that makes sense only to them. . .
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#93780 - 03/20/08 03:36 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: 14tonks]
ebadrake ebadrake Moderator Registered: 10/08/03 Posts: 2104 Loc: Tavares, FL; Peachtree City, G...	Thanks, Tonks. I should never try to ansewr something when I'm pressed for time and don't have time to think it through. Your answer is perfect, and I yield to your better rationale. Ellen _________________________ [Drake & Drake] [my blog]
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#93787 - 03/20/08 04:18 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: ebadrake]
mischale mischale Junior Member Registered: 01/24/04 Posts: 76 Loc: athens, ga	THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH!
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#93790 - 03/20/08 04:57 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: ebadrake]
14tonks 14tonks Member Registered: 10/25/01 Posts: 6298 Loc: Only 3rd world country in US	Quote: I yield to your better rationale Glad you agree with me after a second look, Ellen. We were both using the same rationale; I think you just didn't have the time on your first fly-by to analyze the whole context of that sentence.
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#93930 - 03/23/08 04:05 PM Re: hyphen usage compound adj [Re: 14tonks]
FarAwayDeb FarAwayDeb Member Registered: 03/15/02 Posts: 2834 Loc: just south of Rochester, NY	And they say this job is easy, just type what you hear! _________________________ Good grammar ain't easy.
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