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#100188 - 06/12/08 10:25 PM
Who's in denial about Iraq
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Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1377
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
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McCain.
A Keith Olbermann special comment. After all, it's "not that important" to have an idea of when you're going to bring the troops home.
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#100191 - 06/12/08 10:30 PM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Doug Jones]
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casagrandeMT
Member
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
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After all, it's "not too important" to have an idea of when you're going to bring the troops home.
Right - because the President has the power to do this just by saying so, correct?? Or at least BO thinks so, along with all the other crap he says he will do. 
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Casagrande ex-MT
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#100192 - 06/12/08 10:36 PM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Doug Jones]
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Agnostic
Member
Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 3118
Loc: Chennai, TN, India
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Your troops aren't coming home any time in the foreseeable future.
US wants 58 military bases and an indefinite occupation.
This darn war has gone on longer than WWII, but people seem to be more interested in "terrorist fist jabs."
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Harry
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Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so.--Bertrand Russell
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#100193 - 06/12/08 10:43 PM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Agnostic]
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casagrandeMT
Member
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
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I really don't understand why you keep bringing WWII into this discussion - I believe it is the 2nd time you have done so.
There is no comparison. A quote from the following link:
The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II was roughly 72 million people, making it the deadliest, and most destructive war in human history. The civilian toll was around 47 million, including 20 million deaths due to war related famine and disease. The military toll was about 25 million, including the deaths of about 4 million prisoners of war in captivity. The Allies lost approximately 61 million people, and the Axis powers lost 11 million.
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Casagrande ex-MT
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#100194 - 06/12/08 10:59 PM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: casagrandeMT]
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Softail
Member
Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 477
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Or at least BO thinks so, along with all the other crap he says he will do.
_________________________
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits -- Albert Einstein
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#100201 - 06/12/08 11:38 PM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: casagrandeMT]
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Agnostic
Member
Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 3118
Loc: Chennai, TN, India
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Casa
The comparison is about the time frame and not the casualties. Of course, we are not going to bring up the Iraqi casualties into this because estimates vary with some claiming it to be nearly 100,000 and others claiming it to be nearly 1.2 million.
If you would check the link that I posted or this one--Faux News won't have it--you will see that the case is being made out for a permanent US occupation of Iraq, which will only fuel the madness of the celestial virgin seekers to blow themselves up and maim or kill more American soldiers.
Also, please remember that your allies are all pulling out their troops, Australia being the latest.
_________________________
Harry
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Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so.--Bertrand Russell
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#100208 - 06/13/08 04:15 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Agnostic]
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whorn
Member
Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 679
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Anybody who thinks that some country in the West can plunk themselves down permanantly in some country in the East with a culture that dates back for thousands of years and be accepted, welcomed or tolerated for too long is fooling themselves.
Yes, the US can do it, but it will go broke doing so, and also leaves a bit of a troop problem if other situations arise through the years as they have a habit of doing, given we have a volunteer force and not a draft system.
The Iraq invasion will turn out to be one of the biggest mistakes in modern history. Nothing positive will ever come out of that so very flawed decision.
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#100216 - 06/13/08 08:52 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: casagrandeMT]
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Doug Jones
Member
Registered: 04/29/00
Posts: 1377
Loc: Indian Lake, NY
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Right - because the President has the power to do this just by saying so, correct
As a matter of fact, the President does. It's all part of that "Commander in Chief" deal documented in this document that you Republican's seem not to be familiar with - the Constitution. Article II, Section 2 to be precise.
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#100217 - 06/13/08 09:11 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Doug Jones]
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tropsicleAfter
Member
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 2431
Loc: Vicksburg, MS
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 As my Republican counterpart in the county party policital committee is apt to say, "The Constitution is just a gudieline!"
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tropsicle
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#100219 - 06/13/08 09:14 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: Doug Jones]
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bobbcat
Member
Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 6339
Loc: My office.
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Who is in denial about Iraq? Very well may be BO. As Charles Krauthammer points out here , progress has been made over there, and BO needs to go over there and see it for himself and stop with the crap about waving the white flag, turning tail and running from there. Victory should be the focus, not surrender.
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Bottom line, it's either M-TEC or Andrews.
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#100220 - 06/13/08 09:41 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: bobbcat]
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sheepshearinglady
Member
Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 197
Loc: Nebraska
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I guess I am in denial too. I see no victory possible in Iraq no matter how long we stay. I can't even figure out how one would define victory in this situation. It was a huge mistake to go, and if getting out is turning tail and running, so be it.
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#100222 - 06/13/08 09:43 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: bobbcat]
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Bellatrix
Member
Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 204
Loc: The night sky
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Bush declared victory in Iraq on May 2, 2003.
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#100232 - 06/13/08 10:52 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: bobbcat]
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huntersmom
Member
Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 275
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Victory at what cost? Haven't our soldiers and their families lost enough as it is already? Too many unnecessary deaths for nothing. We had no right or reason for going there in the first place. All our allies are wising up and getting out. It's way past time we did the same.
Edited to add that yes, I agree, there will never be a "victory" there no matter how long we stay or how many lives are needlessly lost.
Edited by huntersmom (06/13/08 10:53 AM)
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huntersmom
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#100235 - 06/13/08 11:05 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: sheepshearinglady]
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mtag
Member
Registered: 07/09/01
Posts: 1186
Loc: North AL
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September 11, 2001. 2,998 killed, 6,291+ injured.
Economic impact (from Wikipedia):
September 12: The attacks had a significant economic impact on the United States and world markets. The New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), the American Stock Exchange, and NASDAQ did not open on September 11 and remained closed until September 17. When the stock markets reopened, the Dow Jones Industrial Average stock market index fell 684 points, or 7.1%, to 8921, its biggest-ever one-day point decline. By the end of the week, the DJIA had fallen 1,369.7 points (14.3%), its largest one-week point drop in history. U.S. stocks lost $1.4 trillion in value for the week. In New York City, there were approximately 430,000 lost job months and $2.8 billion in lost wages, which occurred in the three months following the 9/11 attacks. The economic effects were mainly focused on the city's export economy sectors. The GDP for New York City was estimated to have declined by $27.3 billion, for the last three months of 2001 and all of 2002. The Federal government provided $11.2 billion in immediate assistance to the Government of New York City in September 2001, and $10.5 billion in early 2002 for economic development and infrastructure needs.
The 9/11 attacks also had great impact on small businesses in Lower Manhattan, located near the World Trade Center. Approximately 18,000 small businesses were destroyed or displaced after the attacks. The Small Business Administration provided loans as assistance, while Community Development Block Grants and Economic Injury Disaster Loans were other ways that the Federal Government provided assistance to small business effected by the 9/11 attacks. 31.9 million sq ft, of Lower Manhattan office space was either damaged or destroyed. Many questioned whether these lost jobs would ever be restored, and whether the damaged tax base could ever recover. Economic studies of the effects of 9/11 have confirmed that the impact of the attacks on the Manhattan office market as well as on office employment was more limited than initially expected because of the strong need for face-to-face interaction in the financial services industry.
North American air space was closed for several days after the attacks and air travel decreased significantly upon its reopening. The attacks led to nearly a 20% cutback in air travel capacity, and severely exacerbated financial problems in the struggling U.S. airline industry.
More than 7-1/2 years later, al-Qaeda is a shadow of its former self. When was the last time they accomplished a major terrorist operation outside of Iraq's borders? We drew them in and we are systematically eliminating them. They have also suffered in stature worldwide from some of their actions, and groups who might have aligned with them are now distancing themselves.
I'm sure many would argue that Iraq is no better off than when Saddam ruled the country and let his people starve or meet their fates execution style or in rape rooms, but I heartily disagree.
Yes, I know the intelligence has been found to be flawed. I also know that you cannot pin all of this on the POTUS. Congress jumped on the bandwagon that was propelled by the public sentiment of the time. You have to think back to 9/11/2001 and how you felt on that day. Think back to the months following where you asked yourself when it would happen again, and how we as a country would stop it. You also have to recall that Saddam had done everything possible to thumb his nose at the U.N. and did nothing to ease concerns about his motives and future actions, meanwhile the Iraqi people had no hope for a brighter future under his rule.
Yes, we have had more casualties from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than we had from 9/11/2001. Know that many of the American soldiers lost were there because they couldn't forget 9/11/2001 nor ignore the desire to be a part of avenging their country's losses by eliminating al-Qaeda. They were true patriots who could not let the attack on American soil go unanswered.
It's all very muddled now with our 20/20 hindsight, but I just think back more than 7 years and I understand how we got to Iraq. I'm sure many on this thread will shoot holes (no pun intended) in my post and have brilliant arguments and no shortage of emoticons to emphasize their views, but I guess I just thought 9/11 was getting a little too deeply buried in our gray matter.
_________________________
Something I've learned: Any pan is a no-stick pan if you no cook in it.
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#100237 - 06/13/08 11:10 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: mtag]
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casagrandeMT
Member
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
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Very well said, mtag.
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Casagrande ex-MT
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#100238 - 06/13/08 11:22 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: mtag]
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ahvasquez
Member
Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 404
Loc: Texas
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It's all very muddled now with our 20/20 hindsight, but I just think back more than 7 years and I understand how we got to Iraq. I'm sure many on this thread will shoot holes (no pun intended) in my post and have brilliant arguments and no shortage of emoticons to emphasize their views, but I guess I just thought 9/11 was getting a little too deeply buried in our gray matter.
Saddam Hussein and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, though.
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Anne
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#100240 - 06/13/08 11:27 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: casagrandeMT]
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14tonks
Member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 6295
Loc: Only 3rd world country in US
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Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. How we got here from there is a matter of propaganda and prevarication under cover of patriotism.
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#100243 - 06/13/08 11:35 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: 14tonks]
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casagrandeMT
Member
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
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9-11 had to do with terrorism.
I am sure the Kurds are very thankful we took out Saddam. Quote from the following link:
Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.
But they were only Kurds, right?
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Casagrande ex-MT
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#100244 - 06/13/08 11:46 AM
Re: Who's in denial about Iraq
[Re: casagrandeMT]
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14tonks
Member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 6295
Loc: Only 3rd world country in US
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But they were only Kurds, right?
Guess so, since we were happy to leave them to pay the price after The CIA had encouraged them to revolt several times around. I don't think the Kurds feel they owe us sh*t.
Our constantly changing policy with the Kurds has never had anything to do with the Kurds, or even with whether it was a Democratic or Republican administration--it has always been secondary to what we were trying to accomplish with Iran, Turkey, or Iraq at whatever times we alternately claimed to support them or abandoned them to their fate.
Here you go, a brief Kurdish/CIA timeline from '75 on.
http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/cia-kurd.htm
Edited by 14tonks (06/13/08 11:54 AM)
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